ESL Developments - British Debate Forum

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From Jax
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Dear All,

just to let everyone know what went on in Council...the most significant
things decided were:

1 - PREPPING
group prepping is now banned in the rules

2 - ESL
- ESL teams now have to send a detailed account of why they believe
themselves to be ESL with their registration form. Any dubious accounts
will be passed to pre-Council - and if Council feels a team is in
violation of ESL criteria they will prevent them entering as ESL.

- this is an attempt by Council to prevent future teams cheating by
being in the ESL break when their english is perfect - and thus the ESL
break is simply a safety net for those not quite able to make the EFL
break. Indeed, you only have to look at this year's 'ESL break' to see
that violations still continue in great numbers.
- there was a suggestion that teams should have to either register as
ESL or EFL before the competition began. I thought this was an excellent
idea but unfortunately the majority of Council voted against it.

- electronic dictionaries are now allowed - to help ESL teams.

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From Francis Hoar
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Out of interest - and following from one of the decisions Jax outlined - why should the fact that ESL speakers' English is 'perfect' mean that they should not compete in the ESL part of the competition? Surely the only criterian should be that English is not their mother tongue. Otherwise you are at risk of a competition for 'not quite as good as Singaporean/Fillipino' ESL speakers (to give two v good examples of countries with plenty of flawless ESL speakers), are you not?

Glad to hear KL Worlds went well and happy new year to all,

Francis

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From Greg O Cealleigh
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I know an Irish debater who's first language was Irish. He is of course fluent in English and has been winning things for a few years and appearing in lots of finals. Would you let him appear as ESL?
Greg

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From Fatim Kurji
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surely the best definition would be for someone who neither speaks English as a first language NOR lives in an English speaking country (hence excluding me!)

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From Niall Kennedy
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no, because his university lectures are in English, which is how
'intermediate' cases are determined.

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From Lars Duursma
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The problem with many (though certainly not all) Singaporean, Malaysian and
Filipino ESL speakers isn't that their English is too fluently for an
ESL-competition. The major problem in this matter is that English simply
isn't their second language, regardless their claims. Many of these debaters
have been to English primary & secondary schools, talk English with their
parents and friends and come from a country, region or environment where
English - albeit not the official language - is the lingua franca. These are
the participants who often speak only one language fluently: English. Even
when dining with only 'ESL friends' from the same institution, you will
notice that they speak English with each other.



When this issue was addressed at council meeting, the Singaporean rep
admitted that - even this year - debaters from his country have cheated
massively by registering ESL, even when knowing that they are not. He
defended this by explaining that institutions abuse the ESL competition in
order to raise more funds, or to avoid their financial sources from drying
up. Companies and universities like to see results in exchange for their
money, and the ESL break functions as a great safety net.



I doubt whether this form of cheating will be combated effectively by not
allowing ESL teams to break EFL (which was proposed by New Zealand). One has
to realise that most companies wouldn't even know the difference between
breaking one of them, and non-ESL speaker may still register ESL if it
provides them with a bigger chance of breaking. Such a rule will, however,
have great repercussions for those ESL speakers who - despite facing a
language barrier - still dream of making it to the main break or even
winning the tournament. Take for example both Dutch teams, who didn't break
ESL, haven't broken ESL ever before, but had 13 points by day two of the
tournament. Why destroy their dreams of breaking EFL?

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From Trevor
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FYI (maybe): the World Schools Debating Championships has spent years
discussing the criteria for defining English as a Second Language (ESL)
and English as a Foreign Language (EFL), and will probably spend many
more years as new exceptions come to light. Here’s the latest wording
from our Rules on the subject, agreed last year. The more complicated
definitions of individual and team are necessary because a country can
send 3-5 speakers to WSDC as a squad, and may use any 3 of them in any
single debate, rotating them. So the language proficiency of a team may
change considerably from debate to debate.



Regards



Trevor



Language

18. All Championship debates shall be in English.

19. (a) Special awards shall be given to:

(i) the highest-ranked English-as-a-foreign-language (EFL) team, and

(ii) the highest-ranked English-as-a-second-language (ESL) team.

(b) Individual team members shall be classified as follows:

(i) As an EFL speaker if:

(a) They do not come from a first-language English-speaking family, and

(b) They attend a school where English is not used as a medium of
instruction.

(ii) As an ESL speaker if:

(a) They do not come from a first-language English-speaking family, and

(b) They attend a school where English is used as a medium of
instruction.

(iii) As a native English speaker if they come from a first-language
English-speaking family.

(c) Teams shall be classified as follows:

(i) As an EFL team if:

(a) English is not an official language of the country, and

(b) All or all-but-one of the team members meet the criteria for being
classified as an EFL speaker in accordance with 19(b)(i).

(ii) As an ESL team if:

(a) English is not an official language of the country,

(b) The team is not eligible to be classified as an EFL team in
accordance with 19(c)(i), and

(c) No more than one of the team members meets the criteria for being
classified as a native English speaker in accordance with 19(b)(iii).

(iii) As a native English-speaking team if they do not meet the criteria
for being classified as an EFL or ESL team in accordance with 19(c)(i)
and (ii).

(d) If a team wishes to be eligible for the EFL or ESL award (in
accordance with 19 and [c]), the coach must submit a form to the
Convenor prior the start of the championships outlining the family and
educational linguistic backgrounds of each of the debaters on the team.

(e) Based on the information in the forms submitted in accordance with
19(d) and any other information available, the Chief Adjudicator shall
determine which teams in the championships are to be classified as EFL
teams and ESL teams in accordance with 19(c). The Chief Adjudicator
shall publish a list of the teams eligible for the EFL and ESL awards
(“the published list”) no later than the end of the first day of debates
during the championships.

(f) Any team may appeal against the inclusion on, or exclusion from, the
published list of any team, including their own.

(g) An appeal shall be in writing and submitted by the coach to the
Chief Adjudicator. The Chief Adjudicator shall circulate any written
appeals to the members of the World Schools Debating Council.

(h) The Council shall consider any appeal prior to the announcement of
the winners of the ESL and EFL awards. If the Council feels there is
sufficient justification (in accordance with these Rules) it may amend
the published list by a simple majority vote.

(i) A team which reaches the Grand Final of the Championships shall be
ineligible for the EFL and ESL awards.

(j) In addition to the special awards given to the highest-ranked EFL
and ESL teams, special awards shall also be given to all teams which
reach the Semi-Finals or Grand Final of the championships.

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From David Ham
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There seems to be a fair amount of confusion here about what ESL is and
what it's about. The key issue with ESL is that it is much harder to
debate in a language in which your proficiency is limited. The ESL
finals showcase debaters who are doing something which is inherantly
harder than that which those debaters who are totally fluent in English
are doing. If anyone out there doubts in any way how hard it is to
debate in a foreign language, I suggest they give it a try: it's bloody
difficult.

There is an inherant problem in assessing who is ESL. There are a bunch
of things which can give an indication, three of which are used in the
Worlds constition:

1. Language used at home
2. Language of Institution
3. National language

The fourth criterion is the vaguest but it is the key criterion:

4. Does the individuals level of English present a barrier to
participation?

Whether Engish is the language someone learned first or not almost
doesn't come into it. Level of proficiency is the key issue. Those "ESL"
speakers who have no disadvantage in English have no business being in
the ESL competition and the teams which deliberately ignore the
criteria (the existance of such teams was admitted by the Singapore rep)
should be deplored as the cheats that they are.

There is a real issue that even among the teams that really are ESL,
there is a wide range of proficiency in English. Among the legitimate
ESL teams, those who have hampered but fluent English seem to have a
fair crack at beating each other. This was demonstrated by the
outstanding performance of the Russians this year.

It is, however, also fairly obvious that the teams who have difficulty
actually stringing together English sentences and who often have
significant trouble following the other teams in the debate are not well
served by the ESL system. There has been pressure over at least the
last couple of years from Japan and Korea to do something for what are
termed "English as a Foreign Language" teams. This has been held back at
least in part by delegates' desire to avoid a second set of language
fights at the next level down. UBC have taken the initiative on this in
their successful Worlds bid. They will hold a completely separate
English as a Foreign Language competition in addition to the main
competition. EFoL teams will still compete in the main worlds but will
also have their own mini-competition a bit like the way masters already
works. Apart from showcasing the efforts of those who have the hardest
time debating in English, this should also give these teams the benefit
of feedback from top of the tab judges for a couple of rounds before
Worlds proper starts. Since the EFoL teams tend to end up clustered at
the bottom of the tab, this is a benefit they don't often get at Worlds.

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From Jennifer Twite
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"No, because his university lectures are in English, which is how
'intermediate' cases are determined."

what? I went to university lectures in German, god knows I couldn't debate
in German.

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From Niall Kennedy
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Well - not exactly Jenny, as Oxford modern languages lectures (as opposed to
classes) are mostly in english, and many of the academic journals/books you
have to read are in english too. The year abroad is a different case - but
I'd say it's stretching it somewhat to claim ESL status on the basis of an
Erasmus placing, when the university you pay fees to is an English-speaking
one. (yes kids : in case you didn't know, language students still have to
pay tuition fees to their UK university even when on a year abroad placement
elsewhere. God bless Tony Blair eh?)

I think the basic point is that it's not really possible to follow an
academic course in an English speaking country without using English, even
if it is a languages course. Even if the Irish-speaking Irish debater
studied Irish, (s)he'd end up reading a lot of linguistic textbooks in
English because they just aren't available in Irish, and probably discussing
them in English in class too.

The difficulty comes when you consider the fact that in countries like the
Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Germany etc, some university courses for
example business, management, etc, are conducted entirely in English. A
native dutch speaker could have grown up speaking English in an
international school and followed one of these courses at university - it'd
be hard to draw the line between that person and a native English speaker.
Perhaps there should be some kind of ' lower-age limit' - ie you can only
have started learning english after a certain age if you want to be
considered ESL. The problem is that this requires an honour system which
would be difficult to enforce.

N.

PS incidentally, a lot of us considered Haifa Euros too insecure to travel
to at the time, but I don't remember any requests for special treatment with
regard to voting at that installment of euros council.

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From Daffi-Kudish-Weichert
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Let's start with the P.S -- as far as i recall, there weren't specific
recommendations NOT to go to Israel in 2002. Nor did you have to send your
passports to another country in order to get visas. The fact that MMU tried
their best to let Israelis in doesn't make it as clear-cut as some would
have you believe (and yes, they did try hard, and no, it didn't help).
Now to the ESL issue: i'm an english student; this means i have read Chaucer
in the original middle-english ("whan that Aprille with his shoores soote/
The drought of March hath perced to the roote" etc), but i still THINK in
Hebrew. that means it takes me time to find some of the proper terms, i don
t know all the idioms and sometimes use false ones translated from the
Hebrew (you might recall Iva Kutle being offended by an israeli using the
term "catholic wedding," which is quite common in hebrew), i sometimes use
simpler language in order to avoid problems (getting points off for style)
and my accent, though understandable, is not that of a native speaker (some
more points off for manner). so yes, i read wayne booth's theories of the
novel in english, but do so with the aid of a dictionary when necessary.
most debaters (at least in israel) aren't literature students but rather law
or political sciences students (as are most debaters in general), so i guess
i'm doing relatively well.
yes, there may be some debaters in ESL countries who studied in english
speaking countries as children (there aren't many english speaking schools
here) or have spoken english at home as young children. they are -- at
least in europe -- a minority. i admit the problem arises in the far east
(Singapore, Philippines etc), but in the european circuit it is not too
great an issue in terms of defining who is or is not ESL.
the problem that does exist in europe (and was previously discussed on BD)
is that of adjudication -- people with a non-British/Irish/Scottish accent
do get less point for style by many adjudicators, including ESL ones (who
are impressed by good english with a fine accent). when trying to explain a
complex argument without rich language, the argument itself may appear less
profound and cause problems with the understanding of matter as well.
understanding the EFL teams may also be a problem and get you off clash.
personally, i try my best to overcome this by debating in english before i
go abroad to tournaments; it helps of course, but i'm still not an EFL and
never will be. if i can beat EFL teams despite my handicap, good for me,
but don't assume it's under even terms. the point of debating is fair play
by all participants -- debaters (who of course shouldn't lie upon
registration), adjudicators, and council, that shouldn't hurt all ESLs
because of some cheats on the one hand, and shouldn't allow those cheats
that hurt real ESLs on the other.
You could ask people to register as EFL or ESL at preregistration, which
should make things simpler when the real thing begins by saving time and
allow you to spot irregularities (such as half of Oxford declaring
themselves ESL, for example), but i wouldn't go to questioning the ESLness
of people in general to the point of a full CV and holding tests. if,
during the tournament, we see real problems like the one with singapore,
council may consider some form of condemnation. this way you have the stick
but you don't take away the carrot from those of us who do have problems.

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From Greg O Cealleigh
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"Even if the Irish-speaking Irish debater studied Irish, (s)he'd end up reading a lot of linguistic >textbooks in English because they just aren't available in Irish, and probably discussing them in >English in class too. "

I studied in Irish up to University, completing Leaving Cert exams in Fraincís, Gearmáinís, Fisic, Stair, Mata and, of course, English. If I had chosen to I could have studied Commerce through Irish in a number of different academic institutions, or even studied Early and Modern Irish in Trinity. All of which are conducted entirely through Irish. Would thi make me eligible?

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From Guy Yariv
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David,

wouldn't the simplest criterion for ESL is - someone debates better in
another language than in English?

Failing that, do note that ESL is not a status is a bit like virginity-
you can lose it in several ways, but you can't 'become' a virgin.
Therefore, certification should be done along the lines of

'have you been through one of the following:
1. lived in an english speaking country for more than __ years; or
2. studied in an english speaking institute for more than __ years;or
3. speak English at home

answering affirmatively to one of these should disqualify you as ESL.
Now let's just fill in the blanks.

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From Fatim Kurji
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Thinking in a different language shouldn't be enough to qualify you for ESL and neither should debating better in another language.
I've always spoken three languages (my parents speak different languages), although I didn't pick up English until I was at school. I think in Gujrati and if you catch me by surprise I'll swear at you in Katchchi. That doesn't mean I'm an ESL or EFoL speaker. It makes a mockery of those who don't have the exposure to English but still have the balls to try and debate in it. I debated in Spanish once, that was f**king hard. Unless it's that's hard, you ought not be able to win phoney titles and rob others of their deserved win.